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Boycott Redux ?
Submitted by Forums_Admin on September 5, 2003 - 9:26am.
Here we go again! Talks of boycott of French products for retaliating against the French government's position on the Iraq post-war UN mandate are making the rounds in Washington, and elsewhere. Is this just a new development, or the continuation of the "malaise" between USA and France? What do you think of boycots in general? Is this what the oldest friendship beteen nations has to come to?
Due to the somewhat acrimonous debate, please refrain from vulgar, defamatory judgements. These do not help the debate and will be deleted without notice. That being said, everyone is welcome to share their thoughts and ideas about this very controversial issue. |
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French translation
True, but like the regime, his theology changed.
"If there were a god, I would reach up and pull him down" -Stalin
On of the things that defeated Communism was that the Russian people wanted their religion that had been banned by the Communist state.
CRC
CRC
Why? I'm not exactly sure. But one might be that when the Government becomes something that doesn't really help you, so you tend to have another type of support group that you would rather associate with more closely (i.e. the family).
To say that France does really well because of the family structure does really well may or may not be true. The Family was made to provides and protect itself, if allowed. But families also have the ability to join forces to protect their given rights (i.e. larger government).
I really haven't studied a lot about France's social programs, so I can't really say a whole lot in detail. I got a book that I think talks about this called, "La Revaluation Sociale."
All of what I'm saying is not to say that there cannot be good governments that allow strong families.
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French Family Values
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: July 29, 2005
Americans tend to believe that we do everything better than anyone else. That belief makes it hard for us to learn from others. For example, I've found that many people refuse to believe that Europe has anything to teach us about health care policy. After all, they say, how can Europeans be good at health care when their economies are such failures?
Now, there's no reason a country can't have both an excellent health care system and a troubled economy (or vice versa). But are European economies really doing that badly?
The answer is no. Americans are doing a lot of strutting these days, but a head-to-head comparison between the economies of the United States and Europe - France, in particular - shows that the big difference is in priorities, not performance. We're talking about two highly productive societies that have made a different tradeoff between work and family time. And there's a lot to be said for the French choice.
First things first: given all the bad-mouthing the French receive, you may be surprised that I describe their society as "productive." Yet according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, productivity in France - G.D.P. per hour worked - is actually a bit higher than in the United States.
It's true that France's G.D.P. per person is well below that of the United States. But that's because French workers spend more time with their families.
O.K., I'm oversimplifying a bit. There are several reasons why the French put in fewer hours of work per capita than we do. One is that some of the French would like to work, but can't: France's unemployment rate, which tends to run about four percentage points higher than the U.S. rate, is a real problem. Another is that many French citizens retire early. But the main story is that full-time French workers work shorter weeks and take more vacations than full-time American workers.
The point is that to the extent that the French have less income than we do, it's mainly a matter of choice. And to see the consequences of that choice, let's ask how the situation of a typical middle-class family in France compares with that of its American counterpart.
The French family, without question, has lower disposable income. This translates into lower personal consumption: a smaller car, a smaller house, less eating out.
But there are compensations for this lower level of consumption. Because French schools are good across the country, the French family doesn't have to worry as much about getting its children into a good school district. Nor does the French family, with guaranteed access to excellent health care, have to worry about losing health insurance or being driven into bankruptcy by medical bills.
Perhaps even more important, however, the members of that French family are compensated for their lower income with much more time together. Fully employed French workers average about seven weeks of paid vacation a year. In America, that figure is less than four.
So which society has made the better choice?
I've been looking at a new study of international differences in working hours by Alberto Alesina and Edward Glaeser, at Harvard, and Bruce Sacerdote, at Dartmouth. The study's main point is that differences in government regulations, rather than culture (or taxes), explain why Europeans work less than Americans.
But the study also suggests that in this case, government regulations actually allow people to make a desirable tradeoff - to modestly lower income in return for more time with friends and family - the kind of deal an individual would find hard to negotiate. The authors write: "It is hard to obtain more vacation for yourself from your employer and even harder, if you do, to coordinate with all your friends to get the same deal and go on vacation together."
And they even offer some statistical evidence that working fewer hours makes Europeans happier, despite the loss of potential income.
It's not a definitive result, and as they note, the whole subject is "politically charged." But let me make an observation: some of that political charge seems to have the wrong sign.
American conservatives despise European welfare states like France. Yet many of them stress the importance of "family values." And whatever else you may say about French economic policies, they seem extremely supportive of the family as an institution. Senator Rick Santorum, are you reading this?
You've missed quite a bit of activity in the forums. There were plenty of anti-French bigots in here for awhile. However, we chased them out.
Have you been using your time to improve your grammar and spelling?
It a huge expo with beasts and farm animals and crops from all over France, with "pavillons" from each regions where you can taste their local food, and buy it at reasonable price. The Salon de l'Agriculture has become a trendy must see for many people in Paris, including all members of our govt., party leaders and even show business stars, all eager to prove that they care for the "ruralité".
One word of advice : if you are to go there, plan the whole day, and wear good shoes. And, oh yes, you can also taste and buy wine there.
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crc: Did you ever go to the Agricultural Fair that is held in Paris each year - somewhere around January or February - ?
Donerail
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Baron de la Brède et de Montesquieu)
was right: democracy isn't the best think for everyone. According to him they really could have any type of stable government, because of the type of religious system they currently have. Next to Blackstone and loch, I think he was the best of the modern philosophers.
Vive la Vraie France! Vive Les Etats Unis!
If you could post the link to the article you read, that would be great. I can't seem to find it on the web. Thanks!
HG15
HG15
The problem is, we have no idea what life is like in the Middle East, and I find it very arrogant and naive of this administration to think that if every country in the world has an American-style government, we'll all be hunky dory.
I am absolutely disheartened when I hear about things like the article you mentioned. I think it is an even bigger tragedy that our government is telling the Iraqis to be more like us, embrace our way of life, but the culture as a whole is not ready for such a large amount of change in such a small time period. As a naive American myself, I can't believe that there are cultures who still treat women like this, and it makes me sad that we are provoking both sides. I will read the article and get back to you!!! Thanks for the welcome, Don!
BTW: where are those WMD's????????? Enough said. Get over your French problem b/c you should also boycott Germany while you're at it.
About the British : I think we the French know that a majority of the Brits are opposing Blair's politics of being the US' poodle (as we say here), because we've seen some polls on that. I believe it's even worse in Australia. I hope we can witness the result of that in the next elections ?
I hope you stick around in this forum the longest possible. Your posts and opinions are a valuable asset here.
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I actually disagree with some aspects of its organisation for example, why should anybody have any power of veto ? However, I cannot expect everything to be organised around the detail of what I believe and feel the simplistic "group of countries agreeing principles" to be a generally "good idea".
My understanding is that the UN is independent of the US, or rather the US is a member state of the UN (amongst many others). If the US consider the UN to be their legal voice to the international community they are probably "at odds" with other UN member states ? which is probably a contributory factor in the current problems.
Your comments on the US/French are interesting in that I had not previously noted that the US antagonism seems very directed at the French rather than including the Germans and Russian.
Do the American people not see through the actions and motivations of their politicians ?
However, there is actually quite a lot of antagonism between the UK (population) and US (not individuals but the nation as a whole). A significant portion of the UK population have a very poor opinions of the US, though this does not become unpleasantness to individuals, nor boycott type actions, more just verbal criticism. Whilst the Iraq war initiated quite a lot of thus, subsequent things have contributed (e.g. US failure to commit to the Kyoto agreement ('cos they like the luxuries that high carbon emissions allow), Guantanamo Human Rights abuses, etc.
I am a strong believer in forums as the exchange of ideas, thoughts and opinions allows one to realise mis-conceptions, etc. one may have had and for one?s own opinions to "evolve". It is only through the exchange of opinions that we can really form our own opinions. Forums are an ideal platform as they encourage exchange of ideas between a wide range of people (who would never normally talk to each other). I suppose that is one reason why I find it difficult when some people get very antagonistic with other (countries) for the reason they do not agree with their own opinions.
I really don't think of you as a naive person, but your posts sound somewhat naive.
First, about the UN : don't you know that the UN is an American instrument ? They founded it, funded it, they still host it, and they lead it. The UN is supposed to be the US' *legal* voice through the int'l community. Over the years, the US have constantly used the UN to bring their messages and help carry their int'l policy, and they have constantly ignored the UN when the UN would oppose their politics. Best examples : Israel, Iraq, and Panama. That's why the other superpowers like Russia and China don't give much a damn about what the UN might say, they know it's not of much value.
Second, about the anti-French thing in the US : France was just used as a regular scapegoat here, and nothing else. France helped Chimp to gather his nation around him to support his war, against those nasty cheese-eating, surrender monkeys. I often believe France is a great scapegoat to the US. It's a power, but not too superpower, so you can easily make fun of it, unlike Russia who would kick your ass. It's filled with French, so it won't hurt anyone in the US if you make fun of them, since French immigration to the US is older and statistically weaker than, say, the Italians or the Germans.
And, it's a latin, roman-catholic country, that chose to have an easy-going way-of-life instead of a hard-working thrifty one.
So, I'm thinking Americans will likely continue to hear more anti-French crap in the next coming years, as long as it serves some dark purposes.
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Many American's talk about how great their nation is. Unfortunately, the impression they are giving to the rest of the world is not quite so appealing - people who cannot tolerate others disagreeing with them. What makes it even more childish and immature is that the French/German and Russian attitudes have subsequently been proved right. Much of the evidence presented to the UN and public by the US/UK was untrue.
France was regularly mis-quoted by US/UK politicians. France did not say it was against the war ?full-stop? but rather believed that the war was not necessary at the time it started. They were saying "we will not xxx unless yyy". However, it suited US and UK politicians to omit the "unless" bit.
In Europe and certain other countries (where I am aware of attitudes), the general attitude to the US have taken quite a lot of knocks over the last few years ? mainly due to their politicians and generally portrayed attitudes (e.g. "I?m boycotting French products because they don?t agree with me"
In Europe, you will find relatively little antagonism to US individuals. Europeans are mature enough to realise that within a nation there are a wide range of opinions and attitudes and they can "rise above" such immaturity.
If the US is such a great nation, why can?t it behave like one.
To Europe, the US presents a general impression of total self interest. It has shown total disregard to the UN over starting a war. Also, for example, the illegal taxation of steel imports to the US. The case had to be taken to the World Trade Organisation which declared it illegal ? which did not stop the US. For some time they just ignored the WTO. Self interest gains the respect of nobody.
I'm not for one moment suggesting that the rest of the world is perfect. However, the rest of the world is a little more "open minded" and less childish over e.g. "Lets all boycott the French as they wont agree with us".
I hope I'm my comments are helping some US people realise that maybe some of their attitudes might be a little "one-sided".
hello patmag, welcome to the forums! it can get rather heated and rowdy in here, but that is ok. We all do like a spirited conversation!
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Well congratulations, I am happy for you and can certainly share the happiness since yesterday evening Olympique Lyonnais went to Turkey to beat the crap out of Fenerbhaçe (OL 3, Fenerbahçe 1). Lyon now ranks first of its group, and Manchester FC is only second. Champagne anyone ??
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P.S.: by the way those stats were quoted from the Washington Times. So they've got to be true, right ?
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From: donerail @ 68.98.174.47 (Thu Sep 23 13:05:06 2004)
nice pair
of shoes
From: crc @ 68.98.174.47 (Mon Sep 27 13:27:14 2004)
Actually. you look kind of jewish
Dns resolved 68.98.174.47 to ip68-98-174-47.dc.dc.cox.net
apparantly, somebody in the forums is masquerading as donerail and crc and signing their names to comments in my album. Wonder who it could be?
Pigé ?
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1) where can I visit your photo album ?
2) how can you get my IP address -- and be so positive it's mine ?
I actually tried to log on to the forums from a Kinko's last week, but the server seemed to be down.
LVB, do you teach your kids the same way you lead your investigations ? Oh gawd.
CRC
I wonder if he's been logging in here while being in the USA, spying on all of us and laughing his head off?
And on a different note: The NY Yankees BASHED the Red Sox! "BOSTON (AP) -- The Yankees kept circling the bases, embarrassing Boston's beleaguered pitching staff. By the time the long, long night ended with a devastating 19-8 romp over the Red Sox, the dreaded New Yorkers were just one game away from a shocking sweep."
Too bad! LOL :-)
No loss that she is gone. Why do people come in here just to start arguements? It's sooo stupid and it's just another way to show the rest of the world how gullible and lame-ass most Americans are.
On the topic of leather, I have a real Formula 1 racing jacket from a rider. I was watching a French friend's boxes, after she had to move back to France. She won't ever be back to the USA on a permanent basis, so after 2 years of hearing nothing from her, I opened the boxes and I discovered a REAL formula 1 racing jacket with the Marlboro patch on the back and front. It looks cool with a black mini skirt and high heels.
No photos of that, for my web page....sorry
LVB, Donerail : I love French lingerie
Your loss...now Mrs. Donerail won't have any reason to show you all the pretty things she buys in Paris then on your trips
hmmmmmm maybe that comment was from crc. He left a comment in my album and it was rather dryly written, just like the shoes comment. maybe I should delete his posts
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