Boycott Redux ?

Bonjour!! hi! can anyone help me translate the word "BEAUTIFUL BOY" in French? Thanks. please send it to my E-mail Add: allanjerome_demesa@yahoo.com. thanks a lot!!! A.J.

"Stalin was a former seminarist."

True, but like the regime, his theology changed.

"If there were a god, I would reach up and pull him down" -Stalin

. . . and before the Revolution, Russia was a very strongly religious country. (Russian Orthodox Church)

On of the things that defeated Communism was that the Russian people wanted their religion that had been banned by the Communist state.

AF : Stalin was a former seminarist.

CRC

Think of the most famous dictator -Stalin. Did he come from a very religious society? Think Again. That's not to say that there is not some truth from the premise. I'm not sure, if religion has the devinitive answer to this question. Religous families do tend to be stong, but so do many non-religous families. REligioin actuially creates the only basis for rights. Under a non-repressive government the government protects the God-given rights.

AF : you're taking the problem from the wrong angle : bad oppressive govt. didn't produce strong families that immigrated into the US. But strong families usually come from conservative and religious countries, that tend to produce dictatorships and hard-line monarchies, especially in those days. That's politics and sociology 1.0.1.

CRC

Bad Oppressive Government makes strong families. Just look at the nationalities of the Families that immigrated to the US. Which ones had the closest families?

Why? I'm not exactly sure. But one might be that when the Government becomes something that doesn't really help you, so you tend to have another type of support group that you would rather associate with more closely (i.e. the family).

To say that France does really well because of the family structure does really well may or may not be true. The Family was made to provides and protect itself, if allowed. But families also have the ability to join forces to protect their given rights (i.e. larger government).

I really haven't studied a lot about France's social programs, so I can't really say a whole lot in detail. I got a book that I think talks about this called, "La Revaluation Sociale."

All of what I'm saying is not to say that there cannot be good governments that allow strong families.

crc: That's why I posted it

LVB : very good article. I wish it was published in the Washington Times rather than the NY Times though, but hey, you can't expect too much either. I'm sending this to all my american friends, a little propaganda never hurts ;-)

CRC

This is from the NY Times. I'm not sure if this is the correct thread for posting, but here goes:

French Family Values
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: July 29, 2005

Americans tend to believe that we do everything better than anyone else. That belief makes it hard for us to learn from others. For example, I've found that many people refuse to believe that Europe has anything to teach us about health care policy. After all, they say, how can Europeans be good at health care when their economies are such failures?

Now, there's no reason a country can't have both an excellent health care system and a troubled economy (or vice versa). But are European economies really doing that badly?

The answer is no. Americans are doing a lot of strutting these days, but a head-to-head comparison between the economies of the United States and Europe - France, in particular - shows that the big difference is in priorities, not performance. We're talking about two highly productive societies that have made a different tradeoff between work and family time. And there's a lot to be said for the French choice.

First things first: given all the bad-mouthing the French receive, you may be surprised that I describe their society as "productive." Yet according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, productivity in France - G.D.P. per hour worked - is actually a bit higher than in the United States.

It's true that France's G.D.P. per person is well below that of the United States. But that's because French workers spend more time with their families.

O.K., I'm oversimplifying a bit. There are several reasons why the French put in fewer hours of work per capita than we do. One is that some of the French would like to work, but can't: France's unemployment rate, which tends to run about four percentage points higher than the U.S. rate, is a real problem. Another is that many French citizens retire early. But the main story is that full-time French workers work shorter weeks and take more vacations than full-time American workers.

The point is that to the extent that the French have less income than we do, it's mainly a matter of choice. And to see the consequences of that choice, let's ask how the situation of a typical middle-class family in France compares with that of its American counterpart.

The French family, without question, has lower disposable income. This translates into lower personal consumption: a smaller car, a smaller house, less eating out.

But there are compensations for this lower level of consumption. Because French schools are good across the country, the French family doesn't have to worry as much about getting its children into a good school district. Nor does the French family, with guaranteed access to excellent health care, have to worry about losing health insurance or being driven into bankruptcy by medical bills.

Perhaps even more important, however, the members of that French family are compensated for their lower income with much more time together. Fully employed French workers average about seven weeks of paid vacation a year. In America, that figure is less than four.

So which society has made the better choice?

I've been looking at a new study of international differences in working hours by Alberto Alesina and Edward Glaeser, at Harvard, and Bruce Sacerdote, at Dartmouth. The study's main point is that differences in government regulations, rather than culture (or taxes), explain why Europeans work less than Americans.

But the study also suggests that in this case, government regulations actually allow people to make a desirable tradeoff - to modestly lower income in return for more time with friends and family - the kind of deal an individual would find hard to negotiate. The authors write: "It is hard to obtain more vacation for yourself from your employer and even harder, if you do, to coordinate with all your friends to get the same deal and go on vacation together."

And they even offer some statistical evidence that working fewer hours makes Europeans happier, despite the loss of potential income.

It's not a definitive result, and as they note, the whole subject is "politically charged." But let me make an observation: some of that political charge seems to have the wrong sign.

American conservatives despise European welfare states like France. Yet many of them stress the importance of "family values." And whatever else you may say about French economic policies, they seem extremely supportive of the family as an institution. Senator Rick Santorum, are you reading this?

Amero-Franc!! When did the mental institution let you out?

You've missed quite a bit of activity in the forums. There were plenty of anti-French bigots in here for awhile. However, we chased them out.

Have you been using your time to improve your grammar and spelling?

crc: Awesome. Thank you. Donerail

Donerail : the Salon de l'Agriculture is a MAJOR even here. You should definitely see it if you're interested. I don't know if you would though, being an urban bostonian (not to say a snobby new-englander), but urban snobby Parisians usually flock to this thing too, which is a sort of reconciliation of the rural and the urban worlds.

It a huge expo with beasts and farm animals and crops from all over France, with "pavillons" from each regions where you can taste their local food, and buy it at reasonable price. The Salon de l'Agriculture has become a trendy must see for many people in Paris, including all members of our govt., party leaders and even show business stars, all eager to prove that they care for the "ruralité".

One word of advice : if you are to go there, plan the whole day, and wear good shoes. And, oh yes, you can also taste and buy wine there.

CRC

amero-franc!! Where have you been? When did you get out?

crc: Did you ever go to the Agricultural Fair that is held in Paris each year - somewhere around January or February - ?

Donerail

Well look who's back ! I know someone who's gonna be happy. AF : you're surprisingly right about the iraqi constitution, democracy and human rights is not an arab concept, however sad it may be. The US should have stayed out of this mess in the first place.

CRC

Iraq is an Islamic State, since the new constitution, so I think a lot of that will start being initiated by the government. I think the US stayed out of their business a little too much. I really don't think it possible to create a very sable republican democracy, when the people are not as educated and informed as other places. Their ideology is not really made for it. I think that Montesquieu (Charles de Secondat,
Baron de la Brède et de Montesquieu)
was right: democracy isn't the best think for everyone. According to him they really could have any type of stable government, because of the type of religious system they currently have. Next to Blackstone and loch, I think he was the best of the modern philosophers.

Vive la Vraie France! Vive Les Etats Unis!

HG15: Sorry. Unfortunately I read it in a "hardcopy." (How quaint) It was either the Wall Street Journal or Newsweek - I really can't remember now. The article could have been a little over the top, but the treatment of women in the Mid-East has been appalling for centuries. Donerail

I heard on the BBC yesterday that authorities have "ruled out" religious violence by that group re: a group of women who were found killed last week I believe. The Islamic police-type group said that the women were prostitutes and everyone believed them. I'm sure there is more to the story, but I don't think the "authorities" in Iraq really care about the issue.

If you could post the link to the article you read, that would be great. I can't seem to find it on the web. Thanks!

HG15

I don't know why this showed up twice... sorry!
HG15

holmgirl15: Thank you. Donerail

Hmm... I'll have to look the article up and get back to you on that one. Even though I am not a fan of W, I definitely welcome any positive news from Iraq. Any would be fine with me. I am actually a little glad that W was re-elected b/c I want him to fix this mess that he's gotten us into.
The problem is, we have no idea what life is like in the Middle East, and I find it very arrogant and naive of this administration to think that if every country in the world has an American-style government, we'll all be hunky dory.
I am absolutely disheartened when I hear about things like the article you mentioned. I think it is an even bigger tragedy that our government is telling the Iraqis to be more like us, embrace our way of life, but the culture as a whole is not ready for such a large amount of change in such a small time period. As a naive American myself, I can't believe that there are cultures who still treat women like this, and it makes me sad that we are provoking both sides. I will read the article and get back to you!!! Thanks for the welcome, Don!

holmgirl15: There was a facinating article this week in the Wall Street Journal about how women in Irak are being assassinated by members of the Islam Religous Police. Those that dress in Western garb or otherwise being "uppity" are targeted as well as those that seek elective office. Being a woman, and being anti-Bush, what is your take on this? I never would have thought along these lines, but if the Bushies can get some modicum of civiliztion into that decrepit region - maybe I'll have to change my tune an eat crow. Donerail

holmgirl15: Welcome. I agree with you completely. Boycotts never work and the people who claim to be boycotting are simply displaying their ignorance. Donerail

I know a lot of people that are boycotting French products, and in retaliation, I have done the opposite - I only drink Evian water, wear Chanel makeup - you name it, if it's made in France, it rocks. Screw people who have no idea what's really going on in international politics. Get educated, get real, get over it.

BTW: where are those WMD's????????? Enough said. Get over your French problem b/c you should also boycott Germany while you're at it.

js : yes, many French wish the UN were that tool you just described, but unfortunately it is not. You see, French politicians are lawyers are heart. They're lawyer-trained, and their views on things are always very legal. This is why they tend to want to abide by int'l laws constantly. I've heard some Americans making lousy comments on how France is doing to Ivory Coast the same things the US are doing to Iraq : but believe me, if France didn't have UN support and green light in IC, the French Army would leave immediately.

About the British : I think we the French know that a majority of the Brits are opposing Blair's politics of being the US' poodle (as we say here), because we've seen some polls on that. I believe it's even worse in Australia. I hope we can witness the result of that in the next elections ?

I hope you stick around in this forum the longest possible. Your posts and opinions are a valuable asset here.

CRC

crc95. actually we are probably in broad agreement. Maybe I am to much an idealist and take thing to be what they are presented to be. Thus my opinions about the UN. I believe it to be a group of countries getting together to agree a set of common rules they will all abide by. Maybe naïve, but to me it is a sensible thing to have (for that purpose). It is that "idealist" view of the UN that I base my comments.

I actually disagree with some aspects of its organisation for example, why should anybody have any power of veto ? However, I cannot expect everything to be organised around the detail of what I believe and feel the simplistic "group of countries agreeing principles" to be a generally "good idea".

My understanding is that the UN is independent of the US, or rather the US is a member state of the UN (amongst many others). If the US consider the UN to be their legal voice to the international community they are probably "at odds" with other UN member states ? which is probably a contributory factor in the current problems.

Your comments on the US/French are interesting in that I had not previously noted that the US antagonism seems very directed at the French rather than including the Germans and Russian.

Do the American people not see through the actions and motivations of their politicians ?

However, there is actually quite a lot of antagonism between the UK (population) and US (not individuals but the nation as a whole). A significant portion of the UK population have a very poor opinions of the US, though this does not become unpleasantness to individuals, nor boycott type actions, more just verbal criticism. Whilst the Iraq war initiated quite a lot of thus, subsequent things have contributed (e.g. US failure to commit to the Kyoto agreement ('cos they like the luxuries that high carbon emissions allow), Guantanamo Human Rights abuses, etc.

I am a strong believer in forums as the exchange of ideas, thoughts and opinions allows one to realise mis-conceptions, etc. one may have had and for one?s own opinions to "evolve". It is only through the exchange of opinions that we can really form our own opinions. Forums are an ideal platform as they encourage exchange of ideas between a wide range of people (who would never normally talk to each other). I suppose that is one reason why I find it difficult when some people get very antagonistic with other (countries) for the reason they do not agree with their own opinions.

js : two things.

I really don't think of you as a naive person, but your posts sound somewhat naive.

First, about the UN : don't you know that the UN is an American instrument ? They founded it, funded it, they still host it, and they lead it. The UN is supposed to be the US' *legal* voice through the int'l community. Over the years, the US have constantly used the UN to bring their messages and help carry their int'l policy, and they have constantly ignored the UN when the UN would oppose their politics. Best examples : Israel, Iraq, and Panama. That's why the other superpowers like Russia and China don't give much a damn about what the UN might say, they know it's not of much value.

Second, about the anti-French thing in the US : France was just used as a regular scapegoat here, and nothing else. France helped Chimp to gather his nation around him to support his war, against those nasty cheese-eating, surrender monkeys. I often believe France is a great scapegoat to the US. It's a power, but not too superpower, so you can easily make fun of it, unlike Russia who would kick your ass. It's filled with French, so it won't hurt anyone in the US if you make fun of them, since French immigration to the US is older and statistically weaker than, say, the Italians or the Germans.
And, it's a latin, roman-catholic country, that chose to have an easy-going way-of-life instead of a hard-working thrifty one.

So, I'm thinking Americans will likely continue to hear more anti-French crap in the next coming years, as long as it serves some dark purposes.

CRC

I notice from quite recent posts that some people (presumable Americans) are still boycotting French products. Even at the time when the US/UK decided not to ask the UN to sanction its war, preferring to rather take unilateral action, such a boycott would have been childish.

Many American's talk about how great their nation is. Unfortunately, the impression they are giving to the rest of the world is not quite so appealing - people who cannot tolerate others disagreeing with them. What makes it even more childish and immature is that the French/German and Russian attitudes have subsequently been proved right. Much of the evidence presented to the UN and public by the US/UK was untrue.

France was regularly mis-quoted by US/UK politicians. France did not say it was against the war ?full-stop? but rather believed that the war was not necessary at the time it started. They were saying "we will not xxx unless yyy". However, it suited US and UK politicians to omit the "unless" bit.

In Europe and certain other countries (where I am aware of attitudes), the general attitude to the US have taken quite a lot of knocks over the last few years ? mainly due to their politicians and generally portrayed attitudes (e.g. "I?m boycotting French products because they don?t agree with me".

In Europe, you will find relatively little antagonism to US individuals. Europeans are mature enough to realise that within a nation there are a wide range of opinions and attitudes and they can "rise above" such immaturity.

If the US is such a great nation, why can?t it behave like one.

To Europe, the US presents a general impression of total self interest. It has shown total disregard to the UN over starting a war. Also, for example, the illegal taxation of steel imports to the US. The case had to be taken to the World Trade Organisation which declared it illegal ? which did not stop the US. For some time they just ignored the WTO. Self interest gains the respect of nobody.

I'm not for one moment suggesting that the rest of the world is perfect. However, the rest of the world is a little more "open minded" and less childish over e.g. "Lets all boycott the French as they wont agree with us".

I hope I'm my comments are helping some US people realise that maybe some of their attitudes might be a little "one-sided".

hi! I'm back from visiting a friend in Oklahoma. I see the francecom forum admins edited my msg...they didn't remove that much from it...just a few extra vowels

hello patmag, welcome to the forums! it can get rather heated and rowdy in here, but that is ok. We all do like a spirited conversation!

Camille -- touche! The ignorance from people of a country that is so great that has provided so much opportunity to learn is positively astounding.

Awesome. More for me then. I'm sure that the Chinese will be pleased for you to continue to buy their cheap, inferior products, particularly those that were once made in the U.S. by American workers. Hmmm, why aren't you ticked about that?

crc95: Said like a true manager. Donerail

LVB, you're supposed to investigate on who hacked your photo album. There is no time for you to take naps or even yawn. Now get back to work.

CRC

crc95: merci. le sox rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Donerail

That would be vivent les Chaussettes Rouges

Well congratulations, I am happy for you and can certainly share the happiness since yesterday evening Olympique Lyonnais went to Turkey to beat the crap out of Fenerbhaçe (OL 3, Fenerbahçe 1). Lyon now ranks first of its group, and Manchester FC is only second. Champagne anyone ??

CRC


P.S.: by the way those stats were quoted from the Washington Times. So they've got to be true, right ?

crc95: I thought the percentage was a lot higher. On an unrelated note, I certainly hope that all Forum visitors are cheering on the exploits of the beloved Red Sox. I certainly assume LVB is cheering on the Sox as they are truly America's Team. crc95, I remember you indicated that you didn't follow American baseball that much. Just think of the Sox as some sort of a blend of Napoleon, Charles de Gaulle, and Voltaire. Just two and a half hours until gametime and about seven hours until fabulous celebrations in the Hub of the Nation. Vive le Sox Rouge. Donerail

... and as you probably already know, people who have crushes on donerail or myself represent statistically about 11,68 % of Internet female users. See, that is a lot of people.

CRC

LVB: It must be someone who has a crush on crc95 and/or myself. Donerail

Yup, that's not my IP. Apologies accepted.

CRC

okie...here it is....the comments from my online album:

From: donerail @ 68.98.174.47 (Thu Sep 23 13:05:06 2004)
nice pair
of shoes

From: crc @ 68.98.174.47 (Mon Sep 27 13:27:14 2004)
Actually. you look kind of jewish

Dns resolved 68.98.174.47 to ip68-98-174-47.dc.dc.cox.net

apparantly, somebody in the forums is masquerading as donerail and crc and signing their names to comments in my album. Wonder who it could be?

Each PC's IP is unique. Therefore, since I never left anything on that album of yours, it canNOT be me.

Pigé ?

CRC

donerail/crc: when I login to my album I see the IP of who left comments. crc and donerail have the same IP. You cannot see the IP without the album password. I will do a trace on the IP tonight when I have time and get back to you.

LVB: Are you saying dholland62 is a Boyscout? He or she sure seemed older than that. I think he or she was older. With regard to the shoes, I had nothing to do with it and I'm sticking to my story. Apparently crc95 is denying it as well. Could it be Patty? With regard to the Red Sox, I haven't been keeping up with it. I mean, after all, it is football season. And Election season, baseball is so trivial I can't imagine anyone following it. Donerail

hum ... not sure exactly what you are talking about, nor accusing me for, but I'd be interested in knowing two things :

1) where can I visit your photo album ?
2) how can you get my IP address -- and be so positive it's mine ?

I actually tried to log on to the forums from a Kinko's last week, but the server seemed to be down.

LVB, do you teach your kids the same way you lead your investigations ? Oh gawd.

CRC

donerail: I logged into my photo album and compared the IP of crc and the shoe comment by "donerail". Seems crc made a comment in my album about Patty's shoes and signed your name to it. You can yell at him for doing this when he gets back to his PC in France.

I wonder if he's been logging in here while being in the USA, spying on all of us and laughing his head off?

And on a different note: The NY Yankees BASHED the Red Sox! "BOSTON (AP) -- The Yankees kept circling the bases, embarrassing Boston's beleaguered pitching staff. By the time the long, long night ended with a devastating 19-8 romp over the Red Sox, the dreaded New Yorkers were just one game away from a shocking sweep."

Too bad! LOL :-)

donerail: she vanished after I posted her name/location/Boy Scout affiliation. She can deny who she is, but I found her...you know what i mean...

No loss that she is gone. Why do people come in here just to start arguements? It's sooo stupid and it's just another way to show the rest of the world how gullible and lame-ass most Americans are.

On the topic of leather, I have a real Formula 1 racing jacket from a rider. I was watching a French friend's boxes, after she had to move back to France. She won't ever be back to the USA on a permanent basis, so after 2 years of hearing nothing from her, I opened the boxes and I discovered a REAL formula 1 racing jacket with the Marlboro patch on the back and front. It looks cool with a black mini skirt and high heels.
No photos of that, for my web page....sorry

LVB: I think you might like nice Harley leather. It looks like we've seen the last of dholland62. Its too bad, he or she was starting to get entertaining. Thats the trouble with goobers, their attention span is almost non-existant. Donerail

dholland : please continue boycott France, the prices here will decrease and we'll buy wine and cheese at lower prices

LVB, Donerail : I love French lingerie

donerail: I'm suprised at you! A man who doesn't like French lingerie?

Your loss...now Mrs. Donerail won't have any reason to show you all the pretty things she buys in Paris then on your trips

hmmmmmm maybe that comment was from crc. He left a comment in my album and it was rather dryly written, just like the shoes comment. maybe I should delete his posts

LVB: Well, that person was not me. Not that I wouldn't do such a thing. And, BTW, French lingerie isn't my particular cup of tea either. Donerail