France love and hate.

LOOK AT THE 2ND DEFINITION!!!!! al·ly 1. to unite formally, as by treaty, league, marriage, or the like (usually fol. by with or to): Russia allied itself to France. 2. TO ASSOCIATE OR CONNECT BY SOME MUTUAL RELATIONSHIP, AS RESEMBLANCE OR FRIENDSHIP :) 

in·teg·ri·ty n. 1. Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code. 2. The state of being unimpaired; soundness. 3. The quality or condition of being whole or undivided; completeness.

Donerail, don't be stressed. You're doing a good job. This website has had a lot of integrity and I have enjoyed it.

crc: I just made another friend with Thor-axe. And TPWIAO just got him or her banished. This is stressfull. Donerail

Donerail : it all makes sense now.

CRC

Thor-axe. I agree totally. Donerail

Anyway, whoever that may be, SalB reported him, which means that he was probably thrown in Git'mo, wearing a bright orange jumpsuit and taking his morning dump on a very rare edition of "Koran in braille".

CRC

nope, I don't have any illiterate friends. Must be some teenager with nothing better to do..

Then maybe it's some of LVB's friends, the ones who had troubles logging in. Looks like they made it after all.

CRC

crc, . . . no, I don't drink this early in the day. I just reported it. Hopefully, it will be removed. Obviously a teenager who couldn't get a job at Mickey D's this summer.

Donerail : I hate the Tour and I always will. It's a childhood thing. About Pax's book, it's available through Amazon.com. I'll think about the fruits & vodka, but they rather do fruits & rum here, and they love nothing & rum.

CRC

LVB: Why in gawd's name would anyone want to go to Oklahoma? Herbert's BBQ in Tennessee is hard to beat. You can spend the night eating BBQ pork/ribs and Bud draft for $12 - or about 8 Euros except I would imagine the folks down there have never seen a Euro.

CRC: Try mixing some vodka with the watermelons and bananas. BTW, it is fun following the Tour de France. Today Lance goes thru the area of the Pyrenees that Mrs Donerail and visited last April.

PAX: Thanks for that info. I will find that book. I just finished one that may be similar. "Savoire Flair" by Polly Platt. It was published about 5 years ago and is really quite informative and humorous.

Donerail

crc: You are sooooo right....the BBQ ribs are da best! If you're ever in Oklahoma, I know where you can get some excellent BBQ...

America doesn't have much to offer in the ways of good cuisine, but BBQ ribs are the exception

If you're interested by that book, Donerail, I'll give you further information :
"Sixty Million Frenchmen can't be wrong" is written by two canadian journalists : Jean-Benoît Nadeau and Julie Barlow. It's published by Robson Book (I've bought this book in the UK so it's highly possible it may be published by another company in the US).
It's a bit complicated and sometimes technical, as it deeply analyzes the french political system with its rules. Anyway it exposes a clear and objecive explanation of many affairs that are not stated that way in France.
If you happen to read it, please tell me what you think of it. I would enjoy having another point of view than my own one.

I agree with the creativity, the music, the consumption, the countryside and the freedom. I'll add something more : FOOD. Mmmmmm, can't wait to lay hands on BBQ ribs again. I'm getting tired of the watermelon and bananas.

CRC

pax: I'll have to find that book. I agree with your view of the France/US situation. In general, I find that people with an education do not stereotype or express dislike for an entire nation. I think the people in the US that express a dislike for France are an ignorant lot. But if its one thing that the US has - it is variety. I am just so disappointed that this variety of people managed to elect a idiot to be its President. You should visit the US. Our main attractions are creativity, music, conspicuous consumption, wild and open countrysides, lots of wood, and a fairly high degree of freedom. And a weak dollar compared to the Euro. And, of course, Harley Davidsons. Donerail

Donerail, I only have to believe you for what is concerning your country. It's a fact that a lot of people in France have their own opinion about the USA, and unfortunatly it's often a bad one.

Well, I admit I've never been in the US but every American I've known left me a good impression. Some were pretty much cultured than me or my friends. In that way I don't want to be biased by what I can see on French TV about America, which I believe to be subjective. That's why I prefer to speak -or write- directly to people, and why not travell there. I just want to have my own judgment about what I see, read or hear and not about what is being reported to me.

I think in most of the cases, the famous US-France dislike is much a misunderstanding than a real aversion. People don't like because they don't know eachother.

I've red a book which I think is very interesting both for the French and for North-Americans. You probably already know it : it's called "Sixty Million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong". This book isn't an apology of France and French, it only explains WHAT they are and why.
It's very interesting for foreigners who are taught with their own references and concepts how works France and what are its values. It's also intersting for the French as me who can therefor realize how we are seen abroad, and what is so original for the foreigners, which we cannot think about just because we are used to it.

I'd appreciate such a book would exist to explain so well the United States for the French !

pax: Any discussion of public education will hit a lot of nerves in the USA. Our public education system has to be one of the worst in the Western World. I remember reading a survey a while back where a sample of USA high school and college students were asked to find the USA on a world map. Less than half were able to do so. And that is just simple geography. You can imagine the responses to cultural questions. I don't know much of the European education system but from what little I do know I think it is probably superior. Donerail

To be fair most Americans want out of Iraq. In fact, most of the people are against the president's policys. Unfortratly we don't have a paliment where we can call elections. I believe alot of the anger between our two countriesis that the US is a little older than two hundred yearts where as France goes back over a thousand years. There is resentment in France that an upstart would be the most powerful nation in the would, and refuses to listen to age old experiece.

Well I'd like to write a few words about the other subject in matter. Should the French know better geography than the average American, for which I prefer to rely on your experience as I sadly only know a few, those French only know few things about Geography.

They surely know where is a given country, but few of them really have a precise idea of the political and human factors that caracterise this country. In the end, I think that the notion of geography is linked to historical, cultural matters. And let's bet that neither the American nor the French do really know many things about it appart from specialists from each country.

As an example I'm quite sure that many of the French think that Hungary or Romania, as part of the former Eastern countries, are slavs. In fact, it would represent the same mistake as considering Italians and Germans the same way, with the same religion and similar langages.

So it would be an error to considerate that we, the French, are superior thanks to our knowledge of the world. We had better admitting that we are like all the others.

Ok, Donerail, you are right when you say the A400M is a political airplane : It is the only and last chance for EU to have company which makes modern military transport aircrafts besides the US. And yet the A400M is not the worst example of compromise : as you mentioned the Eurofighter, you may know that France will not have thoses aircrafts. We have our own Rafale, which is certainly the last pure french fighter aircaft, after the Mirage 2000. But do we really need expensive top of art aircrafts ? It's hard to imagine that one day we will have to face F22s for real.

Anyway, a fleet of C17s would be too costly for us. We can't afford to buy it as our budget is too reduced. Surely the A400M won't be the best aircraft -as it's only designed on compromises- but let's say it's not the worst. It's the only to have a single aircraft designed for our needs : air-air refueling and refueler, logistical and tactical transport, paradropping, self-protection. No other aircraft could do this for an acceptable price.

a cool smile hopefully will loosen y'all up. You are all TOO serious lately!!

Donerail : did I strike a nerve or something ? I sense some aggressiveness in your last post My humour is alive and well, thankyouverymuch, don't feel it's very 'reserved' though.

And yes, I shamelessly check the CIA's factbooks sometimes, it is a very valuable source of int'l info, and updated regularly. You should give it a try, after all the US taxpayer is paying for this, just as it paid for those weird contracts the Pentagon had with Boeing, you know, the ones your Senate launched a few inquiries about.

Relax D'rail, have a glass of Nuits-Saint-Georges, after all I'm a big fan of Lance too, I just love his most famous tune "What A Wonderful World".

CRC

crc: The heat and humidity down there in the FG must be getting to you. I sense hostility and jealousy instead of your usual reserved humor. In any event you are exaggerating when it comes to Americans and geography. Only about 50% or 60% of my compatriots know nothing about geography. Although you disagree with me, I would not place myself in that category. I know where to go for good food, wine, service, and culture. I am embarrassed, though, that I did not know where FG was. I did know it was some gawdawful hot and humid place ? I just assumed it was in Africa. And yes, we Americans are good at making intercontinental planes and waging intercontinental wars. And it?s has been a good thing for you that we are so adept at it. And yes, Airbus has been quite successful ? thanks in large measure to the subsidies given to it by the French taxpayers. No doubt about it, Airbus makes some good stuff to compete with Boeing. crc, I was stunned to see that you read and believe what our CIA puts out. You are about the only one I know that does!! In any event, you can learn some more by reading my post to pax below. No lets hear you cheer on Lance Armstrong. Bon soir.



pax: I am sure that the A-400M will be a good plane. I was just questioning the design wisdom of a 4 engine prop jet. I can understand a one or two engine prop jet for those real small airfields ? only because low cost one or two engine turbofans have not yet made their appearance -yet. If you look around, you won?t find any 4 engine turbo prop passenger airliners or freight cargo planes around. The reason is an economic fact or life: a turbo prop does not have the lift, reliability, or maintainability of a turbo fan. The plane also has one of those items that is a nightmare for aircraft engine applications: the propeller gear box. In this case four of them on a propeller system that is still in the development stage. Good luck on that one. All sorts of parts and dynamic/kinetic energy forces at work. Not good. The A-400M is a politically constructed aircraft ? and that is a reality that I understand. When the Airbus consortia is finished with it, you will have an aircraft that can definitely compete with our 40 year old C-130. You will have the political and economic participation of EU with Rolls, Tusas, Dowty, Snecma, etc. but the plane will be a huge tecnnological compromise. And anything involving Rolls-Royce will be rather pricey. And thats all ok. We have to remember that it is only a cargo plane. Similarly, when you are done with the EuroFighter, you will have a plane that can compete with our 30 year old F-15. The US Joint Strike Fighter will be the standard bearer by then. And thats ok too, as it demonstrates a tendency of the EU folks to provide for its own defense instead of relying on the USA to do it for them ? and having to put up with all of our other shortcomings. A couple examples of the latter is our foray into Iraq and our willingness to pound billions down the rat hole developing the F-22 fighter. All these platforms are the result of some degree of compromise on economics, politics, and technology. Peace, Donerail

Donerail : you work with planes too don't you ?? Then maybe it's thanks to people like you that Airbus is nowadays more successful than Boeing.

And by the way, every american I know including you knows really nothing about geography. And yet you people want to make intercontinental planes, and wage intercontinental wars. No wonder it's bound to failure. I was saying it pisses off the US because the CIA dubs FG " the only non-independent portion of the South American continent ". Lol . You can just hear their teeth grinding, can't you ? Well I can.

http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/fg.html

CRC

As far as the A400M is concerned, I think I can answer you, Donerail.

This aircraft was sized for European needs, which are much more reduced than the American ones. A compleete fleet of C-17s, though it would constitute an excellent logistical force, would be too expensive for our budgets and wouldn't be adapted to the use we request from our carriers.

We have now tactical aircrafts that are able to land on short runways made of sand. I know it perfectly well because it's my job and I can ensure you that no other heavy aircraft could operate from the airfields I've practiced in Ivory Coast.

Unfortunatly these aircrafts are now old and undersized. They need to be changed for newer airplanes, which may carry more weight. The A400M is that type of aircraft.

Don't think a propeller aircraft is old-fashioned, it's just another technology that is also very reliable and efficient, adapted for another use. The A400M will be able to fly at Mach 0.7, which is much more than what you can expect from old C-130s and C-160s.

Moreover, the avionics will be very modern, so this aircraft won't be an old one.

By writing that, I don't want to sell A400Ms to the US Air Force, but just to convince you that they will be sized for our needs. Other aircrafts have been proposed for the French Air Force, such as a few C17s completed with C130Js or modified Russian Antonov 72s. The result was that the best would be home-made A400Ms !

pug2: You are correct, your spelling was horrible. Your grammar was horrible as well and it may mask the fact that your thought process seems to be incoherent.

crc: You give us Yanks too much credit. I would guess that 99.99% of us have no clue (nor care) where French Guyanna is - or what an A-400M is. Personally, until you enlightened me, I thought FG was in Africa somewhere. I am familiar with the A-400M. Why LaFrance and her EU partners are investing so much money in old technology is facinating. A prop jet of all things and with 8 blades made of composites. I hope they hand out good parachutes. Maybe you will come to the good ole USA for C-17s when you want an upgrade. Go Lance!!! Donerail

My spelling was horrible sorry

As an American, I believe in principal with with She stanbs for. Because we do have the freedoms of the constiton. I was taught in school that that that the constition is elastis, that means that that that the same constition that did support slavery now has a civil rights admentent. Unfortuntantly the president appoints a justice it must go to the Senatate. Then He /she is ratafied. The mood of this country is grestly divived,withthe conservativss , they are slightly the majority. I don't knoe the percentage is,but eightly some percernt americas presance. I do love France, but I'm America first,right or wrong. The does't mean that I don't exercise my legal right to fight against things that still must be changed.

Pax : I agree with you for the most part. Just don't write stuff like "US + IQ = FR + IC" because this is too strong a statement and as I pointed out, the neo-cons just love those nasty shortcuts.

Keep in mind that the US went into Iraq for the oil, they illegally overthrew a govt. by a nonetheless illegal act of war and agression that killed many innocent civilians. Let's not forget the second part, the funniest trickiest one : how Chimp-in-Chief lied to his fellow citizens and to the whole world by giving them phony motives and how that was SO obvious at the time. Personally, I don't think the US are there to restore peace and govt., I think the US' primary goal is to secure future oil production in the hands of US conglomerates. Now the US army is stuck into the muddiest quagmire, and is planning a nice cut & run, but that's their own loss.

As for our influence in Africa : ok, I agree with you on that too, except that personally, I would like someone to explain to me what we really gain from it. Africa today, sad as it may be, is more than irrelevant for the most part, and as you described, only seems to be getting worse every day.

I live and work in French Guiana, a place you probably know if you were in the military. To my humble opinion, FG is expensive to the French taxpayer, useless and rather worthless. We could easily get the hell out and just pay a lease for Kourou. But, we're keeping the place, because it's of high strategic interest. Besides, it puts France on the map in South America, which luckily and incidently pisses off the US. Just like the day the A-400 M takes off.

CRC

Well I'll try to answer everyone and explain what I wrote yesterday, just to be sure that I won't be misunderstood.

First of all I'll introduce myself and apologize for not having done it before. I'm a man (as there has been a doubt about it) and I work in the French Army. I've spent two months in Ivory Coast, doing my job and executing missions.

Ivory Coast has changed a lot since my childhood when I first visited that country. When I arrived there I could not really reconize it. So many things had changed : poverty had invaded that rich country, there was a climate of tension and social instability. I must add that I've personnaly no economic interests in that country and that the only thing I got when I first came there was friends and penmates.

I wrote that Ivory Coast was France's Iraq because despite the famous UN-mandate that allow us to stay in Ivory Coast, the situations may be similar -though they have not the same intensity-. We are stuck there just to maintain a kind of peace and just avoiding civilian war. French Army can't afford leaving the country without risking a major conflict in the area, which could extend to countries around Ivory Coast and then to the whole region like in Eastern Africa in the 90's.

So that's why French interests in Ivory Coast's crisis are not limited to chocolate and national ressources. The integrity of the whole Western Africa is then threatened. France has a traditional support from those countries : a political one amoung the International Community. That had been illustrated during the US-France debate over Iraq, when almost all the African Countries supported the French side.

In case we would disengage our troops from Ivory Coast, well that would mean the end of our international weight and influence.

I'm sorry if I unintentionaly upset someone with what I'm writing here but I thing it's one reality we have to know if we want to speak about Ivory Coast. Indeed, there are plenty other realities and I would personnaly appreciate the others' ones.

To end that long and indigest text, I would say that I'm looking forward to pilot myself the future A-400M.

Please forgive me for my possible (and certain) mistakes as I just studied English at school. Nothing compares with your perfect English.

P.S. : CRC you are perfectly right about Ivory Coast. Many foreigner families (American amoung them) have been evacuated by French Army. That was our job and political opposition has nothing to do with saving lives, so we did it.

Donerail : to quote Mrs Donerail, you disappoint me sometimes. Anyone who really believes the US's Iraq is France's Ivory Coast must be a Fox News watcher with very little knowledge of world matters. The only people I heard who would think that were actual neo-cons Bush-lovers with very little honesty.

France is in IC because and through a UN mandate. It acts only on behalf of the UN, and with strong support from the US, who don't want to do that dirty job themselves (the French army rescued many US families there). The minute it would lose the UN's support, France would pull off. Believe you me, French politicians are way too chicken to do anything abroad without the support of the int'l community. Of course, it was France that went in IC because of our knowledge of the country, because of our ties, and because of our military post there. That's what former colonies do. Same reason the US watches over Philipino politics, Holland keeps an eye on Suriname, and England ... well, England.

The neo-cons and Bush-supporters like to contend that we are there because of the chocolate industry. It's a very easy reasoning for their not-so-refined intellect : France diss the US because they went into IQ for the oil, meanwhile the French do the same in IC for the chocolate. I wanna say : LOL. The cocoa industry is a joke, I'm not even sure France makes the most money out of it (go ask Nestle or Cadbury or General Food), and for each and every ton of cocoa seeds that reach the coasts of France, we get like 10 illegal aliens from IC. Yeah nice deal.

And what's wrong with our A-400 M again ???

CRC

crc: I think pax's observations are correct. Concise and well stated. Certainly it added a little life to this Forum. I can sense he or she hit a nerve with you relative to the Ivory Coast. Perhaps you want to articulate your views of French Colonialism? Now that is some history my compatriots should have learned from France - instead of learning, we chose to squander our precious resources by getting bogged down in Iraq. Sadly, it is turning out to be an expensive education. We didn't learn from your colonial Indo-China experiences either. Well, as TPWIAO might say: "Repetition is the mother of learning." By the way, did your aircraft carrier ever get off that sandbar? Now, lets all cheer on Lance. Donerail

Perhaps he just meant France has a lot of troops committed in the Ivory Coast. It will be interesting to hear his answer (or her answer!).

Pax : France has its own Iraq, Ivory Coast ?? Now THAT is an interesting idea. Would you care to elaborate, please ? (so that we can eventually make fun of you of course).

CRC

Hi, FrancaisFanatique (and all the other paricipants).

Well, that's quite sympathic to see that we, the French, do not only have oponents in this big country, which we are dreaming and are afraid of at the same time.

But, I think the simple truth in all these mediatic opositions, is that everyone is allways going the most suitable way for him.

Talleyrand, a french politician said more than two centuries ago : "Countries don't have friends, they only have interests".

Well this remains true even if the world has changed a lot since that time. In a way, we can be sure that US forces have fought in Iraq for American's interests -or at least for a few Americans' one-.
France could not go the same way just as his army is allready split around the world (I can personnaly testify it) and engaged in a lot of theatres : in Afghanistan as it has been mentioned, but also still in former Yugoslavia, and in Western Africa. France has its own "Iraq" : Ivory Coast. It would be too costly and too risky for French government to have two major theatres on the same time. Moreover, the possible interests we have there are certainly too weak to aford us to go there and look for it.

Another factor we cannot forget is that there are millions of immigrants in France, most of them being Muslims. France just cannot have a anti-Arabic position. In this case, the Paris underground would experience sad London attacks every day. This would be inacceptable for any government.

To sumerize all these nebulous ideas I would just say that everyone follows his own way, depending on his situation.

Manu Nice,
I am an American and I fully realize what you are saying. I can't believe the way our people and that fat lard of a president,Bush, criticize the French for not participating in Iraq! I apologize on behalf of my people. I, for one, respect and understand France's ways. People call the French "cowards" and sissys" and say "If it weren't for us, in World War 2, there wouldn't be a France!". THIS IS COMPLETELY OUTRAGEOUS!!!!! THINK!! WE ARE THE ONES WHO ARE SELFISH IN OUR QUEST FOR POWER AND GREED! THE AMERICANS!! If France hadn't saved our behinds in our Revolutionary War, THERE WOULDN'T BE AN "AMERICA"!!! ~Plus, we wouldnt have the Statue of Liberty. My condolences to the French people for our insolence.
~FrancaisFanatique

kfooler...what a big time loser...I didn't know there were such idiot Americans out there, but then again I live in NJ where tolerance, openness and creativity abound...

Acadien42: Nice to hear from you again. You shouldn't stay away for so long. Isn't kfouler5 a hoot? Numb as a hake and dumber than dirt, but still a hoot all the same. A real, live, goober proving why a good education is so important in this world. He doesn't have a good education yet, but if he isn't too dense he may yet get one from here. It is a terrific challenge but ikorrellim, crc95, js, and your's truly are giving it a shot. Maybe not our best shot, but a shot nonetheless.

Donerail

Hey all... I had left a message about a year ago in the 'France Boycot Redux' forum (p12-13 i think)... Came accross this site again and decided to read over the discussions and see how they had evolved. Glad to see some familiar faces. Donerail still being his wise and witty self and most surprising of all is ikoremmlin (hope i got your name right)... Iko's thought processes seem to have made a complete 180 degree turn since last year. Good for you Iko, you dared to educate yourself... If Iko could do it, I think there might be hope for K5 lol...

All the best and take care all.....

Josh

Yes, I think Donerail needs some help. And, he should get a Pulitzer, too, for his contributions here. I thought I was going to the Love and Hate France room.... oops. Gotta go see La Grandmere, now.

donerail: he gets off on taunting and fighting. If you really want to piss him off, just IGNORE him. When NOBODY replies to him, it will make him that much angrier :-)

donerail: Did you notice that the forum admins deleted yours and my abortion comment? They also deleted my descriptio of CT. I'll have to email you what I said that got deleted.

kfouler5: How dare you talk to the Son of God that way. Donerail

LVB: Taunting kfouler5 is more entertaining than trading recipes with you and ikorrellim. By the way, have you ever made Les Gallottes? Donerail

crc95: I will not let kfouler5 get away with that. I will taunt him. Can you imagine, crc95, he left the US Air Force - and let us become more unsafe without his service - because he felt let down by Bubba Clinton? LOL. You'll have to admit, we get some great entertainment here in the States. Donerail

crc: as I said earlier, if you ignore the loser, he will go away after some time. I've seen PLENTY of people like him and they're all the same. I just ignore the toad now.

ikorrelim: Do you happen to have any of those wonderful Charleston recipies? I have a Charleston cookbook that I bought 4 years ago when I was there, but local people always know how to tweak a recipe to make the food taste better. So please, do share! Go into the "culture" section and feel free to leave your best Charleston recipe!

Donerail : you heard that ? The man called you a coward. Are you gonna let him go away with that ??



CRC

Lav,
I have news for you, ignoring me will not make me go away. It will just make me even more ruthless. And as for my death, not going to happen. Remember only nice people go first, I plan to live forever out of spite.

Donerail,
Either way my IQ is better than yours. You have the IQ of cat dander. And as for me nat making it in the Air Force I just refused to serve under a Commander-in-Chief who would rather get a **** job instead of do his job, so I resigned. So at least I can tell my family my polical views, unlike you cowards.

ikkorelim: You are right. The scandals are starting already, and Bush hasn't even been sworn in for his second term. The DeLay scandal, and now the Republicans trying to declare filabustering unconstitutional because it might hamper their repressive adjenda. The dirty scandals are beginning. I wonder what else will come up in the next year?

You do know that Bush will bomb Iran. He will find an 'excuse" as he did with Iraq, and he will invade or bomb Iran sometime these next 4 years. Mark my words. This will happen sometime in the next 4 years. When there aren't enough American soldiers in the army to do all of Bush's dirty work, then the draft will be reinstated. But it won't be called "the draft". They will find another word for it, but the end result will be the same. Remember, Bush cannot run for a third term, so he can do whatever he wants because he isn't accountable to the American people for anything.